Alan 00:14
I’m very happy today to welcome Nicolas Coudurier, who’s the CEO of Biocodex to cover our healthcare insight. Nicolas, welcome so much to to the podcast. I think our audience will be very thrilled to hear from you A little bit of a, a different type of company and individuals that we’re speaking to. I think that you are the first non American CEO that we’re hosting on the podcast and also you’re the first CEO who is a privately owned company. So I think this will be very interesting to audience. So what I thought we do is start with an introduction for audience to get to know you a little bit better. So if you could kind of give me a little bit of your, your background, you know, how you came into the industry, what’s been your your journey in the industry?
How did you ended up as the CEO of Biocodex basically?
Nicolas 01:12
Thank you, Alan, thank you for hosting me your wonderful podcast. First of all, thank you. I feel privilege being the first non American CEO, actually French CEO being interviewed. Indeed, I’m French. I’m a French citizen. I I was born and raised in France. I studied, but even though I’ve been there, I had a chance to travel very often, probably be the 200 times to the US, if not more. So I wouldn’t say that I’m a citizen of the world, but I happened to be able and and we might come back to that in a minute, but to travel a lot. So indeed, first of all, I, I didn’t have any scientific background, even though I was always fascinated by science when I was a kid, but specifically, and hence I have more business background.
I graduated from a, a, a French type of Ivy League Business School. And after that I went to to do my internship into nothing to do with pharma so far. At the time, I went to a champagne company which was belonging to the LVMH, which is a very famous company because it is, it was, it still is the number one luxury group. And at the time they owned the Champagne Pommery, which is one of the champagne brands. And so there I worked as a, you know, intern and then I met this gentleman who was the CEO of that company you met at the time. He was probably in this mid 30s. And since the company was quite small, I, I asked his personal assistant if I could have a, some sort of a chat or a coffee, would he be accepted.
And you know, sometimes serendipity made it happen like that because I bet Jean-Marie Lefèvre still now happens to be the chairman of the company I am at, at Biocodex because he was or he’s still married to the daughter of the founder of Biocodex. So that’s how I came after to Biocodex because after spending six year in the champagne industry, quite an interesting one where I was traveling very often to the US promoting champagne, including some innovative champagne. At that time, we had a champagne which was the first one to be drunk with a, with a straw or the, or the little little button. So that was in the early 2000 was all and then?
Alan 03:19
Only the Americans would do that.
Nicolas 03:21
Absolutely, absolutely. So great time kind of, you know, a very dense agenda when you work because you have you 8 to 6:00 PM kind of a classical work day. And then you, you continue because when you go to the restaurant or or even to the Bank of your own duty, because that’s where your, your product is sold the champagne. So I had a very interesting career at Pommery. Then I took a year off, which is kind of in turn important for me because even for my leadership and the way I see the world, I took a year off from mid 2002 to 2003 in France. It’s company well covered and it’s even a company, it’s called a sabbatical basically. And I, I crossed Latin America by bike with a friend.
I had to raise somebody. We set up an NGO to collect money. We collected about $60,000 for children of the and those regions, you know, all the mountains because we, we had chosen to do it throughout the mountains of from Ecuador down to Argentina. So that that brought me to a middle of 2003. And then I was called to get from this famous mentor, Mr. Jean-Marie Lefèvre, who had been called himself by his father-in-law to kind of be on duty to, I would say, or join the family of company Biocodex. Biocodex had been created in the early 50s in 1953. And the founder, who was in the early 2000 around 80 plus, tells that Jean-Marie Lefèvre was the most adequate person to run the company, even though himself, Mr.
Lefèvre didn’t have any track record in the in the pharma industry. So that’s how we started that at Biocodex. I was in my late 20s and I started as a area manager for Eastern Europe, so promoting our drugs to partners in Eastern Europe and as well. So that’s how we bounce back to the US. I initiated the US subsidiary, which at that time was very, very small to say the least, about $200,000 during our first year of revenues in 2003. It was based in the West in the Oregon and we had our small but promising brand which is called Florastor, which is still in the US had a very big product now and which is the number one probiotic drug worldwide. Because with Biocodex, we are the pioneer of the microbiome or microbiota industry.
And the Florastor in the US is among our 15 brands, but under the same product which is Saccharomyces boulardii. And again, being the number one probiotic drug worldwide. Why did you pick Oregon? I was surprised myself when I joined the company because it had been picked before by the gentleman just before me who had just initiated and it started, we’re back to science because in fact Biocodex had which was at the time quite a small company, about sixty, $65 million, mostly in France and other for neighboring countries. But initiating in the US, as I just said. And we had or they had at that time in the mid 90s, conducted studies with two great scientists from Seattle University, or I mean University of Washington or I don’t know exactly the name of the university, but basically some key opinion leaders from UW, Lynn McFarland, professor [unclear ~6:53] and which demonstrated that Saccharomyces boulardii.
Our drug had an influence in the in preventing the relapse of Clostridium difficile. So by having this connection with the Northwest with those scientist, the decision was made to open up the operation in Oregon. But again operation that we’re at the beginning extremely small because at the time we targeted we had some sort of a former approach with a little bit of long term care. But then mostly we targeted the osteopaths, so totally different kind of stream. And then you after you I developed to the more classical stream with the pharmacy chains and so on. So that was the beginning of my career. But I connect both plan you connect USA and basic Paris, the eastern part of Europe.
But I was travelling at that time a lot.
Alan 07:49
Then you had mainly this one product that you were taking internationally or you had a portfolio of products that you were trying to bring all over the place.
Nicolas 07:59
In France, the whole country of the laboratory and as many some independent or family owned company, we had other products, legacy products, but most of them were not registered outside of France or besides labour countries. And therefore the the most important pharma product we had was it is still by the way, let’s say call Saccharomyces boulardii. So I was mostly promoting which by the way did this, this number one probiotic drug still represents the 50% of our revenues even in 2025. But at that time it was even representing more. But therefore, to specifically answer your question, in most I was mostly dealing with this drug.
Alan 08:43
And your work was focused on looking for local distributors or were you building your own affiliates or when did the time of deciding that? Okay, it’s good enough for now. We’re going to set up our shop in those territories. For instance, in in the US, I presume at the beginning you were working with local distributors or this you decided early on that it was worthwhile to have your own operation.
Nicolas 09:10
Well, I think your your question is very, it’s a super question because it’s kind of demonstrates the combo of a boldness of a familiar company with at at the same time sometimes a prudent approach. So what would find, It’s schizophrenic, but it did in certain cases. We decided along with the family, the shareholders to open our own shop heads to go with our own subsidiary. It was the case in your controversy, if I may say, Alan, because one of our first subsidiary was in Belgium where our drug is one of the top seller about not only the category, but as all we did the OTC background. And then in the US, the family felt that even though the, the, the road or the journey could be long, it was worthwhile going independent and with our own shop, as you said.
And that through the decade of the 2000, so late 2000, like 2008, 2008, 2010, we accelerated the, my sponsorship along with my CEO and chairman at the time, Mr. Lefèvre, who was most CEO and chairman. I decided or we decided to open up indeed other subsidiaries. I had in mind Turkey, I had in mind Morocco in North Africa. Then we opened Russia as well, we opened others, Romania, Poland, Portugal. So we accelerated step by step opening up our subsidiaries in other, if I may say to be the more possible in control of our own future. Well, depending on the size obviously and in certain cases we are flipping from a partnership sometimes with big pharma like in Turkey we used to be with Sanofi.
Can you imagine all the sudden you move from Sanofi towards your own subsidiaries, but then at least we were able to conduct a drive out strategy. So that’s how it brought us to 17th fully owned subsidiary as of today, the latest one being Vietnam, which we opened in April 2025 last year.
Alan 11:06
That’s a really interesting, you know, because we we often get these questions from companies that have that are mono products company, right. In your case, you weren’t mono product, but you had one big products that you were flashing. And there is a lot of hesitation to say, you know, can I sustain an infrastructure based on the results of only one product or am I taking too much risk or something like that? And often we advise to say like, well, unless you have a pipeline of products that is coming up, you know, you’re probably better off, you know, having a distributor and especially, you know, if you look at Europe, right, I mean, at the end of the day, people think it’s one market, but it’s not really.
It’s a collection of markets and you know, with different pricing rules and you know now the regulatory might be you’re kind of registered with EMA, but after that you have to kind of deal with each country on it’s own and you have to have a minimum infrastructure that becomes very costly. And if you only have one product that’s a big risk. So to your credit and to the families credit to actually have a long term vision of seeing video, we can start with this product, but we have other things that are going to come up and it’s worthwhile making that investment because we want to be in control of the strategy and also get the full margins and the full.
Nicolas 12:25
Absolutely. The full you build data, it’s a couple of the long term where somehow when you have your subsidiary, you build the equity. So even if your PNL at the beginning can be negative with with losses and investments, you build equity and when you are a familiar company, the long term prevails. So that’s very important. The second is indeed capturing the whole budget and the beauty in Biocodex is that we are super gifted if I may say or not gifted because it was a decision of ours. But we have a flagship of our of our production facility which is in France and produces for the whole world for this product about others. So we’re talking about 350 tons or 80 million, eight zero million packs or even if if I was to convert it into doses, it is 1 billion doses per year of either capsules or such a.
So when you have such a flagship industrial flagship, your capacity to be extremely productive, to have very aggressive cost of goods gives you room to indeed take a bit of broader risk commercially speaking with with subsidiaries. And then the subsidiaries that we had the idea was to license other products which we are doing in certain countries, products from other companies that consider that while the best partner and and give us that. And on top of that, since since then we had made some some acquisition, it fuels as well the distribution of our, so the reason it helps to amortize the costs.
Alan 14:00
Excellent. So, so you, you basically your career has been always on the commercial side and then started developing, I guess international business and things like that. How did you transit? So, so I presume your your responsibility kept on going up with having more and more regions reporting to you right until you became what happened or you you took a a detour to it. And it’s.
Nicolas 14:25
Manufacturing more something later. It’s what happened and sometimes with a big ask advice, I’d say it’d be patient because it’s throughout this journey and I love the term journey. You know those 17 years that I have been at the beginning international director and then business officer that indeed I climbed the ladder of the company, if I may say. But besides the ladder reportedly I had a chance of dealing with the entire operation worldwide commercial operations obviously and marketing, dealing with a Chinese partner, dealing with Latin, Latin America, etcetera. So get that gave really me a broader sense of the the entire world. We had this opportunity to set up subsidiaries as I said.
So yeah, all that was was was the way I grew in the company. But then I was promoted as CEO early 2021 and I’m the the first non family member being CEO of this company. The reason is extremely simple. It’s a combo of a competency of sleep and track records because we moved from being at that times. When I entered the company, 75% of our revenues were in France and 25% abroad. Flipping it kind of a reverse in in 2020 with 70% of our revenues outside of France and 30% in France. It’s the big development of of of all the countries that I discussed. So the family felt that it was necessary to choose somebody competent, obviously, but to whom they could obviously trust, you know, the family and in the private business, the, the, the concept of trust is more than a concept.
Actually, it’s their money. They know you. We have personal relationship besides the, the obviously business and corporate relationships. So that probably guided it towards choosing somebody from the inside. Because I wonder what that that they gave me along with the board. So the family members was a, you know, no disruption. They, they wanted the continuity, changing continuity. If I would say our evolution was more what they would do too. And, and one could agree with that because when I took over already the company had multiplied its size by 6 inch or seven. We were at more than €400 million with a nicer profitability. So, you know, the, the, the family felt they were better off taking somebody from the inside.
Alan 16:48
Yeah. Yeah, very interesting. And you’re talking without disruption, but the reality of it is that you went from an organization that was focused on with this lead product, which is an OTC product. And now you’re kind of have, you know, an Rx piece and, and, and even within the Rx, I would say highly sophisticated Rx, right, rare pediatric and things like that. So how did that transformation happen? Because that’s somewhat unusual for, for an organization that is so used to selling OTC, which has its own characteristics, one of which which is interesting is the, the longevity of a brand, right? So that you can invest over long term and things like that versus in the Rx space you have to deal with patent exploration and things like that.
It’s a very different business. And then I would say even more different, it is a rare pediatric Rx business, right. So how did you kind of come up with that, that strategy and that change and things like that?
Nicolas 17:52
The the Rx part, mostly speaking, the rare disease part was already existing and it was part of the legacy because the stiripentol, which is the drug war you’re referring to, is the active principle. At least it was discovered by Biocodex in its own R&D centre in the late late 90s. And then with the long term and the length that it takes, it was registered in Europe late 2000 like 2009 probably for EMA approval and got the NDA approved, Japanese approval for 6012, then FDA probably 2018 within the life cycle of Biocodex or within the pipeline, there was already this project. But you’re right, it accelerated a lot at the beginning of 2020. And therefore, when I took over with, I decided to set up a fully owned business unit because it’s not at all the same thing to not only research, but even market access wise, registry wise and not too much promotion wise, not totally different from the OTC products Florastor Saccharomyces boulardii towards a rare disease.
So if you take the example of the US, in the US even though it’s not the same umbrella, but we have two business units fully owned or Chucks as you said, one is regarding Florastor and one is regarding stiripentol which is commercialized, the brand name Diacomit. The beauty or the difficulty challenge at the same time was to and is still for Biocodex. Myself and my teams is to handle a very broad spectrum of products of therapeutic therapeutical solutions from OTC regular drugs and things I may say Rx and the rare disease and we’re even exploring some DTx. So it’s it’s very broad. So it requires a brain plasticity or agility if I may say. And at the same time, capabilities to make stronger choices like these business units especially dedicated on rare disease because at the moment of time you don’t address it the same way that you do for the TC.
Especially regarding the caregivers, patient association are so important. Obviously the rare disease and it’s something that I, I learned and when I took over, I will remember my first trip post COVID was for American Epilepsy Society Congress, which takes place every year at the end of the, at the beginning of December. And I was touched because I, I, I met some, you know, caregivers and, and families from this, the Dravet syndrome, which is the, the syndrome that we’re helping to treat with the stiripentol. And I was very touched. And therefore there is a this obviously difference because when you flip over and you talk about you’re referring to an Amazon distribution to a even a promotion through TikTok or to social media, etcetera.
But I don’t feel it in any quick to have. So maybe because of being family owned doesn’t oblige us to be somehow so consistent, you know, in the drugs that we choose or that we we have in the basket. It’s, it’s something well we are even considering as a way to prevent from the ups and downs, downs of the patterns in some cases, downs of some competition, the geopolitical. So you know, And Biocodex. Not only do we promote A balanced microbiota, but a balanced company as well. I like that, that’s good. You mentioned the your R&D department a little bit and you said it was discovered by by the R&D. Can you tell us a little bit more about that because it’s that’s somewhat unique for a, a, a company like yours, you know?
So we have a a fully owned R&D centre which is north of Paris. When we have about 66 zero scientists that are working some time on our brands and on our on our on our drugs. They mostly do to be honest, you know, development more than that, that that pure research you could do at that time. They found all the predecessors filmed the stiripentol and so they work on extension of indication either for second or for stiripentol. Mostly they work on galenics. So to give you an idea, stiripentol which is currently in sachet and capsule. The R&D team is developing a oral suspension formulation which is expected to reach the market in the US by next year 2027, which is very helpful for children who have sometimes issues to swallow that can really facilitate the life totally of the patient but of the of the caregivers.
So that’s our D centre. We, we as well are working on as I said, stretching or prolonging the life cycle with, with new indication. It’s still regarding the inventor who are working with already for a pathology which is called the primary hyperoxaluria and I hope that our people can hear it correctly. primary hyperoxaluria, which is a very rare and severe disease affecting kidney function which the stiripentol is bringing alternatives or options of the of therapeutic alternative and we’re exploring that with with a phase three and filing for adjudication by 2029.
Alan 23:12
Yeah, very interesting. And you mentioned also that as you were growing the organization and you’re growing different countries with your own subsidiaries and launching your own products, you also started to look for licensing opportunities from others. Can you talk a little bit about how important partnering is for you in terms of leveraging your your global commercial operations to to bring products to market?
Nicolas 23:39
I I love this world partner because it’s a bit valid by definition. We have a, you know, we operated totally the 100 plus countries. So do you remember I said we had 17 subsidiaries. So it means that in 83 or 85 countries who have a partner for which they those partners promote either Saccharomyces boulardii, Florastor or stiripentol or and, and maybe we can can touch up on that later. Let’s not forget our third pillar, which is women health. So that’s, that’s all the partners we have and vice versa. Universally within our subsidiaries we have partners basically the products within our turnover, 20% of this turnover is represented by Biocodex products that we promote within our subsidiaries with a super powerful subsidiary in France, the home market, where we have about 160 people on the market in the country to be reps of either detailing doctors and healthcare practitioners or pharmacists.
And in that case we have mental health drugs that we have one is to treat as a sleep disorders for autism, children suffering from autism where we got the license from an Israeli laboratory. So the partnership is say quite simple. What I expect from my partners, I hopefully provided to the other partners that give us the product, which is a transparency. Transparency not only in, in the, the, the way the value chain is, is split, but as well in the way all the, the, the process is being made from market access, registration and obviously communication and and promotion. It’s long term. The second part is long term. So with most of our partners being our licensors or when we are our licensees, we are at least the contract say, you know, 557 years.
But in reality, there are partnerships that are lasting for two decades or 25 years. Because, you know, again, the trajectory is not only simple, the journey is not only simple and, and, and we want to make sure that we’re for the longer part with, with those partners.
Alan 25:56
Yeah, very interesting. I know we we dove in into some details around Biocodex, but maybe it would be good to take a step back and and for you to to give a little bit more insight or an overview of who Biocodex is.
Nicolas 26:11
Yeah, I’m sorry, we are so excited. I’m so excited that I don’t have too much into the details. So the ID card of Biocodex is that it’s 100% familiar that you heard of. It’s a second generation that is now on the board because the founder we get created the company in 1953. The funny part, which is another undergo but still part of our idea is that he bought what reserved to to to a scientist, the strain of Saccharomyces boulardii of Florastor. And he bought it because the gentleman had discovered in 1923 in Indo China that the local tribes were treating their intestinal disorders with the lychee and mango, peeling the lychee and the mango. And he isolated the strain, which is now the number one probiotic drug worldwide, which is again an interesting story.
So back to the big figures. We’re now we have closed out 2025 with a record year with [unclear ~27:04]. That is roughly $810 million. So that’s growth of 6 ish 7%. Prior to the 2024, we had the double digit growth post COVID because during COVID because of the all the hygiene, the measures and the mask and so on, there was a drop in the diseases and therefore our business was, was a bit at stake, was not at stake but suffered a bit. But since then we had double digit growth. So we’re closing our record here. We have 1800 employees, half of them are outside of France in the famous 17 subsidiaries that we have a scattered around the world and half of them in France.
And within France we have 350 running our wonderful state-of-the-art facility north of Paris. As I said, 60 in our R&D centre, 400 at the corporate office here in Paris and 200 in the field. So it’s people. As I said, we have 3 bit strategic pillars, the microbiota which is our beloved one because for the history that it means because of of the revenues that it breaks and the only 50% still after 7 decades and it’s the number one probiotic drug worldwide, but for which we’re trying to expand it to go beyond the drug. Let me give you one example we have and hopefully your auditors could have a look at it. It’s called the Biocodex Microbiota Institute, which is a website translated in in the languages, which provides non promotional information about microbiota.
And this is extremely important because microbiota, there is a lot of fuss, noise around it, sometimes adequate, sometimes inadequate and want to provide people not only the general lay public, but as well as healthcare professional about the latest science and latest data. So we go beyond the drug on that. We have as well a foundation which grants money to scientific grants every year throughout the world. So it’s the 7th, 9th edition already. So it’s, it’s very important. That’s the first pillar of microbiota. The second is as you mentioned, the rare disease 1, which was which is around so far still. So that represents more or less 9% of your revenues, but extremely accelerated for the reasons we described earlier.
There was a little bit need. We are now in 55 countries. We sometimes fully owned operation, especially if the US were rather big. And most importantly, it’s a pillar for us in which we are accelerating and investing because we just closed the deal, which was a French pharma biotech, which is called the THX Pharma, a biotech startup listed by the way in the, in the French market, the French stock market to cover and to develop and break to market hopefully in the coming two years depending on the phase three. But so we licensed the, the, the product, the TX01 for three rare diseases. The first one is Gaucher disease, Niemann-Pick type C and Batten, the juvenile Batten, which is a terrible disease for which there is no drug, no therapeutic solution so far.
And so for which we’re conducting the phase three, hopefully a +1 for the family and, and the families and caregivers. And therefore if it goes well, launching the US in 2029. We have the rights worldwide. It’s a very, very interesting deal that we do. It’s an important one or even the financially speaking, we, we paid it up for the 20 million euros. We have this phase three and then we have obviously milestones at the, at the level of the responsibility we we have to develop this drug. But what’s interesting is that the Beyond Batten Disease Foundation, so the parents foundation is shareholder of THX. So it proves that you can have, I would say, a patient society along working line fully aligned with the startup.
And our top pillar is woman else, for which we made an acquisition of a French company. So the brand unfortunately might not be so familiar to your US audience, but US ladies can still find it on the end on Amazon as well testing the market. But the brand is super known in France and Europe. It’s called Saforelle and it’s a leader in France, in Belgium, it’s European countries for intimate hygiene. So that’s our third pillar for which one can say that there is synergy, scientific synergy, but even commercial synergy with the microbiota because you know that we don’t have only a, a gut microbiota, we have other microbiota and women have a vaginal microbiota and hence somehow it it converts.
So that’s the the three combined are representing 70% of our revenues and the 30% extra are coming from the licensed drug that I mentioned a bit earlier and others from established products that we have you know you don’t possibly use it’s a couple of of three decades.
Alan 32:18
Very interesting. What is what is great is that you kind of see like a, a commonality which is basically across all the businesses and the verticals that you have, which is this microbiota expertise, right that you’re seeing across. So that’s the common point across all of the subsidiaries or the verticals that you have, which makes a lot of sense. And also, you know, I think you and I have discussed this in the past, is the, the life cycle of new innovation, right? I mean it, what we’ve seen in the microbiome, it got, people got very excited, a lot of investments and things like that, and then it crashes and then, you know, all of a sudden the, the real science starts to emerge.
And that’s what we’re starting to see. I think with the microbiome. I, I believe also that with artificial intelligence, you know, the complexity of the microbiome equation, if I can call it that, you, you start to be able to kind of really unearth, you know, the value and crack it and things like that, right. So the timing is is excellent for a company like you that have that expertise I would believe.
Nicolas 33:28
Yeah, well, indeed. And and what I forgot to say regarding the ID card is that it is very important for innovation, an innovation that I don’t see only in internal innovation, but we have a outsourced innovation, if I may say throughout some investments that we made in some startups, most of them related to the microbiota. I could quote a couple of them because what refers to exactly what you said earlier, the artificial intelligence cracking the system, if I may say? It’s called the GMT and it’s a startup that we accompanied in seven years from now based in Paris. And the idea is to map the microbiota, to map the microbiota in order to indeed understand it better.
And for that we have the use of artificial intelligence and other models. And the reason I say that is that what’s intriguing about the microbiota is you said it very well. There was this hype with a lot of science behind it and sometimes the good things and the bad things, which especially in the market which is regulated and at the same times non regulated because you have a lot of companies that launch through how to save food supplements. Hence there is not that much regulation. It’s very difficult for the consumers, the patient and the consumers at the same times to know what is true, what is not true. So coming back to this microbiota, there are now some other very promising and scientifically driven, I would say, opportunities and challenges at the same time.
One of them is to see if what happens in your gut can have an influence even when you are suffering from the cancer. So it’s what we call microbiomecology and the idea is not neither for Biocodex nor for the others, but at least not for us to attend the oncology wanted to launch the oncology product. But it’s throughout the better understanding of the microbiota or some microbiota solution to help increase the number of the responsiveness of the patient when they are on immune checkpoint inhibitors treatments or the capacity of the microbiota to receive better and to enhance or synergize, if I may say the treatment. So that’s very promising. There is right here in Paris in Institut Gustave Roussy, but as well in the in the American hospitals, some studies that are being done on that on that matter.
So as you said, microbiota can be, I would say basic microbiota, if I may say our daily routine of our good microbiota and at the same time tackle some very, very narrow and scientific indication.
Alan 36:01
Can we switch a little bit and and start talking about your, your strategy moving forward? So you have a almost a billion dollar company, right? You’re right on the cusp of that. I guess the question is how do you make it a $2 billion company before you take your pension and go enjoy?
Nicolas 36:19
Thanks. For thanks for padding the way that would be great. But before we will, we will, we’ll start with the first, the, the first target of need the, the, the billion dollar and on top of the billion dollar, you know, in Biocodex, what is very important is what we, we see business as a as, as a, you know, working with, with, with other elements, what we call the four Ps. The four Ps are obviously performance or profit, but there as well people, our staff are extremely important and and being a family company plays a lot as well. You know, we are we are not massively off and all of the sudden and then the year after tripling the size of the relation, we’re, you know, more humbly to that.
And so we we care a lot for our people. So people planet. So the, you know, the, all the CSR aspect and our eco responsibility which by the way applies to the whole pharma industry, Pharma industry represents more or less 5% of the CO2 emissions. So we have a responsibility as, as from layers in the industry and Biocodex, we take it very seriously with a, with a clear objective of, of, of decreasing our, our carbon footprint. And the last one is the purpose because as you can imagine, when you are a pharma company and especially in Biocodex, we consider that our purpose is to empowering everyone to live fully. Coming back to, to, to your question of the strategy, the strategy indeed will be to accelerate M and AM and A which will be an accelerator to our organic growth.
We see the organic growth continue to be hopefully a high single digit. It used to be double digit as I said, 212223 and 24. Now we’re closer to the to the to single digit because of competition, because of geopolitical turmoil which is going on and so on. So we find the accelerator can come both from M&A. So we’re looking for acquisitions either through licensing deals or fully, fully acquisition in areas either sectors or geographical areas where we are. So we are you know travelling the world and and and meeting GPM the conference where somehow pitching to to companies or to matchmakers and to the banks because being a familiar company were the public and therefore were not very well known.
So we have this M&A route which is very important. And the second is this innovation for which we think there could be in the two to three years the accelerators, I, I mentioned the microbiomecology we can talk about as well about what happens in wood else or or the rare disease what we have in the pipeline. So on this combined, it is the way we see a promising and still, but but still I would say with ability just but we see a promising future.
Alan 39:19
And on the M&A side of things, is there a particular region or country that you’re you’re targeting versus others?
Nicolas 39:27
Yeah, we are, we are looking for, there is no surprise to that. We are looking for US assets, we are looking for European assets. And in Asia we would be more outside of Japan because we have no footprint in Japan. So we, we, we can be interested by Somersets in Asia. But most importantly, it’s AUS and and Europe that we are that we are looking for.
Alan 39:52
Very good. And can you, I know we touched upon it a little bit, artificial intelligence, I know having had a conversation with some member of your team, Julian mainly who is running your AI, absolutely. Can you talk a little bit because I think you are. In many ways as seeing you and all of my conversation as Biocodex as a as leading the pack in terms of the adoption of artificial intelligence. Can you talk a little bit about how you from a CEO standpoint see it transforming your organization but also in general the industry?
Nicolas 40:35
I shouldn’t say since they would, but close to since they would. I remember I, I, I we had a conversation with my ex come only 2023 so that was 1 1/2 after OpenAI just released the GPT, the first version at least. So I see it as a as a Buster, but start because, you know, you cannot fight against progress. So what could debate a lot about the philosophical aspect of AI, which I do by the way, my family or or sometimes my staff, but as as a, as a CEO I have the responsibility of making sure that Biocodex and ours team are not lagging behind. So we gave very quickly access for our staff at the beginning. It was for those who worked IT to ChatGPT enterprise.
So we booked ChatGPT enterprise door to have our data protected and step by step IT client and accelerated throughout the organization with that proof of concept with internal chatbots that you’re using, some of them are, you know, making wonders about psychologies. So our drug are backed by the drug. There are countries where we do not have the same indication due to history of registration or there has been dozens and dozens of studies are in it. So then you dump all that into the SB bot and then you have all the marketers or medical associates of bio products around the world that can have access to the data. And so it’s it’s extremely, extremely fascinating how fast we are.
We can use it as well in due diligence we can do it’s it’s obviously what’s all the security of the confidentiality parties is secured. You go very, very fast in the due diligence report. We, we do it regarding the the contracts that we have a big partners with more than 100 companies around the world. We have a lot of contract we start as well regarding R&D in order to accelerate it’s some it’s some studies how we can you know address the patients, the recruitments of patients etcetera. So I would say we do it very pragmatically. We didn’t want to do it like you do with too much of A hype because I’m always careful about the hypes. First of all, it treat fears for for the the staff and you need to handle that when you run a company and you can as well drink some disappointments.
So I wanted to play no other promising nor being totally, I would say blind about what’s going on and and I would say so far, hopefully so good. We have teams that are aware that something is happening and at the same time trying to bring it into their own practice for instance as well. It’s called the computer units and regulatory wise and it’s it’s quite beneficiary for to the organization so far.
Alan 43:17
Yeah, you’re saying productivity improvements across all of your organization, right. And I know Julian was telling me one of the things they were trying to do is to understand who uses the best. And then how can we kind of leverage what that person is doing and telling the others and look at what they’re doing. That would be we can create an agent to develop this and yeah.
Nicolas 43:43
And that’s the beauty of how you can merge, I would say technology and collective spirit, human spirit is then you have indeed ambassadors that are because they like it and because they are part of of the gender high squad. This is the name of our internal teams. Then they they, they prove it and their pace towards their colleagues. And I think it’s the best way to have the adoption of this technology because then if it’s your colleague who speaks about it, who speaks quite freely versus if it’s mandatory from the from your CEO that the big difference when it’s coming from your hoodie.
Alan 44:14
Yeah, fantastic. We have. We have 10 minutes left. I mean, this has been fascinating. I could speak to you for two or three hours, I think. Thank. You very much very, very interesting conversation and amazing evolution of a of an organization that started 1953. You said right, that’s right. So that’s pretty amazing and very excited about where you are. I think that you’re gonna see an acceleration of your growth, especially with these new products and hopefully that products that you license, the agreement that you have with THX is really going to accelerate your growth. I think the, we’re certainly seeing a lot of MaaT Pharma being another French company and how microbiome can be used exactly as you said, there’s a, I’ll call it an adjuvant to other therapies to kind of, you know, really improve the outcome of patients that are using.
And so that could kind of become part of any treatment. And and it’s interesting, you know, you have the oncology space, which is of course very large, but it’s somewhat saturated in in some ways, right. But what we’re seeing there is that the treatment of patients require these cocktails of approaches, right. And and I think with the physicians are becoming much more comfortable and treating each patient differently and having the data that allows them to do that and using different aspects and things of that. And so I think the microbiome type solution will come into that space quite naturally. The other space, which is interesting because you are in the with Diacomit, you are in the CNS space.
You know, I hear a lot of people saying CNS is where, you know, oncology was 20 years ago, right. So that there’s a starting to understand that there’s not one product that will solve the problem of everybody that you need to start to have these cocktail of approaches. And so the the, the microbiomes, you know, will fit very naturally into that space as well. So I think that’s a very exciting time to have an advanced knowledge in in the microbiome space because it will open the CNS space as well. You know, we’ve we’ve done quite a bit of work with companies that are working in ALS as an example. Yeah. And what you realize there is that, you know, there’s not one product that can address what ALS is, right?
It’s gonna be a combination of products that will have to be put in place. And so this microbiome approach will fit into all of these treatment algorithms, if I can call them that. And so, you know, even partnering with larger organizations that are leaders in the oncology or in the CNS space will make a lot of sense. That I think will create tons of value for for sure. Correct. The women’s cells you mentioned briefly, it’s interesting because you know we’ve been quite active ourselves in that space as well, but we’re seeing a drought of innovation. So, so that that’s going to be interesting to see what you guys are kind of potentially bringing to the market there because I think that that is also a potentially fast growing segment of the industry moving forward.
Yes indeed. I
Nicolas 47:41
bounce back on what you said about the micro bite and this holistic approach is more and more I mean the pre necessary and we can see how science has evolved without the need of seeing the things much more, much more holistic way. And what what better than micro writer can prove that being an organ by itself and a contribution with its contribution and its action on all the other the organs, even even the axis, obviously a good brain that plays a role in other pathologies that are what could say at the short term not related at all with with my provider. So we’re very excited about that scientifically speaking, business speaking and to make the life of of patients improve.
Alan 48:27
So in the last five minutes that we have, I’d like to ask you questions more about, you know, the advice, for instance, that you could give to someone who’s starting in the industry today. What would you tell them?
Nicolas 48:37
And I will tend them to be curious and open because, and this curiosity should be obviously an intellectual curiosity around science, but not only that, even emotional curiosity, if I may say so, openness to the world. You know, what what you learn today can be, can be known tomorrow. So you have this really necessity to, to be open and curious. Not only that, but what you what you learn today can be or will be or is already out passed by the artificial intelligence. So you better be curious and open you better maintain your critical judgement. Again, bouncing back on these issues or, or watch out about artificial intelligence, especially when you talk about science and, and we have seen over the past years and unfortunately still in 2025 that fake news can can hurt as well as science.
So I would really advise for for for the newcomers in the industry as hope to be to, to keep their critical judgement. The holistic approach. We, we mentioned it, the long term, the long term, there are no, there are sometimes quick successes, but as a whole, it’s taking time to build a career or to build a success. And, and all that I would really suggest to shoot for the long term and then to combine, and it might seem a oxymor or in a position, but to combine ambition and humility. So one could say, I don’t get it. Well, no, you, you need to be extremely ambitious because that’s how you can tackle the, the, the, the challenges that you can cope with the issues that we can make diseases tomorrow treated and cured.
And we are here for that. But at the same times remain humble because sometimes we have failures and because behind every molecule there is a family. And again, this I will never forget behind even the besides the patient to to have the holistic approach of the caregivers by themselves. You know, when we, when we deal with those families, they tell us that obviously the child has an issue, but it, it, it affects the whole family. You have the, the siblings that can miss college because there is no more resources, because all the resources are waiting to treat the, the, the little brother or sister. You have a couples or marriage that are at stake because when you are 24/7 on the, what you can do for your kids.
So ambition and humility, curiosity and critical judgement, I would say.
Alan 51:08
Yeah, you know, there is a a book that I like a lot, which is about building sustainable enterprises and it’s written by Jim Collins and it’s called Beyond Entrepreneurship 2. 0. And in there he talks about the need to have what it calls level 5 leaders. And level 5 leaders are people who are characterized by humility, having the understanding that you’re building something that goes beyond you. And the second characters is the professional will to make that happen, which is really kind of interesting. And for me, it’s been a realization after 15 years of being building KYBORA, ultimately that, you know, there’s Alan, but there’s KYBORA and it’s almost KYBORA is a is a different individual.
And I kind of to make sure it survives me. And so I have to make sure that I build it in the best way so that it can survive. So it, it, it really kind of put yourself in a different mindset, right, of saying like I’m building something that is bigger than me. So that’s interesting. I know you’re gonna have to go, but I just have a, a quick last question. When you were a little boy in, in, in Paris or Lyon, what did you want to be? What, what was your ambition? What were your dreams?
Nicolas 52:17
I wanted to be a journalist and I remember it was the beginning of CNN. So, you know, Christiane Amanpour and I remember really those, those, those people were fascinating for me because I love to, to, to travel. So they were travelling the world and covering what was happening at the time, the, the Berlin Wall fall and what happened in China, etcetera, etcetera. So that that’s what I, I wanted to be. So I’m not, I am now running a company, but I have the contact with people, that’s for sure very internationally driven and then hopefully with an impact. So I cannot tell the story back as a journalist would do, but I will try to impact the story by itself with with my staff.
Alan 53:02
Fantastic, I’m glad that you’ve kept that international flair. I will say that, which is also part of the joy of the the jobs that we have, right and we get to interact with people all over the world and that’s that’s great. Nicolas, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. I think that was a fascinating conversation and I’m sure our audience will will enjoy it. I think you’re on the right path with, with Biocodex and I look forward to seeing how you will implement the strategy and, and your growth and, and look forward to continuing our, our relationship and our friendship.
Nicolas 53:37
Thank you, Alan. It has really been a privilege and honour to be on your on your podcast and your show and I appreciate the the relationship besides our two companies over the two individuals that we are. Thank you very much.
